Earlier this month at the Slush tech conference in Helsinki, this editor had the opportunity to sit down with Sanna Marin, the popular former Prime Minister of Finland who is known internationally for socializing with her friends. But his achievements in office were far more important, including successfully pushing Finland to join NATO to better protect the country from neighboring Russia after it invaded Ukraine.
Marin opted out of Finnish politics in September and currently works as a strategy adviser at the Tony Blair Institute. She is also launching a startup with a longtime political consultant. Still, based on the enthusiastic crowd Marin drew during our conversation at Slush, it’s easy to imagine her eventually returning to the political stage.
When we sat down, she didn’t rule it out. Yet we spent more time discussing what Russia’s aggression means for the rest of the world, why women should be more likely to believe in their own positions of power and the promises and dangers of artificial intelligence, and what lawmakers should do about it. Below are excerpts from that chat, lightly edited for length and clarity.
At the end of 2019, you accepted a job that is often the pinnacle of a long career in public service, and you took it early [at age 34]. How does it feel to be thrust into that position?
Of course, you are never fully prepared when you take on a position or job like that. When you do the work, you know what the work is, so it’s a leap of faith. In Finland we have had several female prime ministers, but if we look globally, the situation is not very good.There are 193 countries in the United Nations, and only 13 of them are led by women, so the world is not very equal. [when it comes to] Leadership, and never has been. I just hope we see more female leaders in the world in the future.
We sat in front of a large group of tech founders who were trying to knock down walls and break glass ceilings. What advice do you have for them?
My main advice is to believe in yourself. believe in yourself. If you’re in a position where you can take on a leadership role, think, ‘Maybe I have what it takes. Maybe I can do this. Women, especially, question themselves a lot of the time. Are they ready for the job? Are they good enough? Can they do everything perfectly? Men don’t think so. They think, ‘Yeah, I’m better. I’m the best person for this job. I think women need this attitude too, they need support and encouragement to take risks and take leadership positions because women are good leaders. If you are in this position now, it is because you are good and capable. So just do it.
As Prime Minister, you have been through a lot. Shortly after your election, the COVID-19 pandemic hit the world. Last year, Russia invaded Ukraine. You have a long and complex relationship with Russia. You have a long border with Russia.Can you take us back to the day you heard the news? [of the invasion] What’s going on in your head?
I remember it clearly, like it was yesterday, because we knew then that Russia was likely to attack Ukraine.during that period [preceding] For example, about half a year ago in the summer and throughout the fall, Russia slowed the flow of energy to Europe in order to reduce storage in different countries so that Russia could later use the energy as a weapon against Europe. Russia has also deployed many troops near the Ukrainian border, saying it is a drill and they will not launch an attack. Now we know that was a lie. Many leaders reached out to Putin to try to find a diplomatic, peaceful way out of the situation before a full-scale offensive began, but he lied to everyone. Now we must learn from this. I have said on many occasions that Western countries and democratic countries around the world should stop being naive.We should respond to authoritarian regimes and [recognize that’s how] The way they operate and the logic with which they view the world is very different from that of democracies. We believe that, in the case of Russia, because of our close economic and commercial ties with Russia, those ties ensure peace because it would be costly and foolish to go to war. Because it’s stupid. From our perspective, this is illogical. But authoritarian countries don’t think so. So it doesn’t prevent anything.
You’ve spoken before about people’s naivety in dealing with authoritarian governments, including on issues related to technology, and you believe autonomy is also important. For example, I heard you expressed concern about Europe’s widespread reliance on Chinese chips. How would you rate Finland’s progress in this regard?
Compared to many other countries, Finland is doing quite well. . .As we look at technology, the most important thing is to invest in education from early childhood to college [and to invest heavily in] R&D and new innovations. . . We in Finland agree that our goal is to increase R&D spending to 4% of GDP by 2030, which is actually a very ambitious goal. . . But I am an optimist, and I believe technology can actually help us solve the big problems of the future, such as climate change, biodiversity loss, pandemics, and other critical issues. So we need technological solutions. We need innovation. We need to make sure we also have the platform and the will to encourage building this platform. . .
How do you evaluate the work of the European Commission?
In many ways, the situation in Ukraine has deepened Europe’s relations with other countries and with the UK. Europe as a whole has an important role to play in ensuring that we have good international rules for the development of big tech and artificial intelligence. Therefore, we need moral rules that every country in the world should or must follow. I can see a lot of risk if the European Commission or other legislative bodies don’t work with entrepreneurs or private sector businesses, because new technologies are developing so fast, so cooperation is key. I would like to see more interaction and collaboration between private and public.
In healthcare and education, we are already seeing many benefits from artificial intelligence. We are also hearing more and more about the risks to humanity. I know you’ve been excited about artificial intelligence for a while. Has your view of its potential changed?
Every technology—all new technology—comes with risks. There is always a negative side to everything. But there is a positive side, which is why I want to see more and more interaction between the people who create the technologies and the legislators who create the rules for them. . . So we can make sure there are more positives than negatives.
I love the work-life balance in Finland and the aversion to great wealth, which is the opposite of what we see in the United States, especially in the Bay Area, where people tend to judge themselves based on how much wealth they have. The money they make. I do wonder if this is a limiting factor in achieving ambitions or attracting and retaining entrepreneurs.
It is very important to maintain a balance in your life. If you just work, you can work very hard for a while, but then you’ll burn out.I think we should encourage ambition, but also [ensure people] They have free time to spend with their families.In fact, we updated Finland’s parental leave system [when] I lead the Government to ensure fathers have more time with their young children, while also [making it more possible] Helping mothers build their careers. I’ve yet to meet a dad who says, “I really regret spending time with my child when he or she was little,” right? No one has ever said that. That time away from work brings new perspectives.
You are now a political consultant at the Tony Blair Institute. What do you think of TBI being called the “McKinsey of world leaders”?
Excellent, [my longtime advisor Tuulia Pitkänen] I have done this before, working in nearly 40 countries around the world, providing advice to governments and heads of state on different matters.Of course, every country is different, whether it’s related to agriculture, technology or many other things, and my job [at TBI] is for [similarly] Provides advice to the Head of State and various governments on certain issues. You know, when you’re in a leadership position, leading a country, no one really understands that. You can’t read about it in a book, you have to live it. So leaders need that interaction—talking to people who really understand the work, understand how hard it is, and all the factors you have to consider when doing it. This is my job. But I also do a lot of other things like speaking at different events and interacting with people. I still want to change the world.I have not lost my passion for these issues [that compelled me to enter into] The first is politics. I still have all those passions, but now I certainly have more freedom to do other things and I’m open to them.
You are very popular as Prime Minister. It’s still early in your career. Would you be interested in returning to politics at some point?
I never said I would never go back. Of course, this is possible. One day I may find the passion to pursue a political career again. But now, I’m doing something else. I believe you should always close some doors to open new ones. Closing some doors, doing something else, finding new paths has worked well for me so far. So I never had a five-year or ten-year career plan or anything like that. I believe that opportunity will come to you and then you decide whether to take it or not. You can always choose. But my advice is don’t plan too much for your life because life is always a mystery, it’s always unknown and that’s why it’s so interesting.
